Ackerman, Howard with Harriet Ackerman (Part 4)

Kepā Maly -- August 5, 2002 at Kalamawai‘awa‘awa


Photo Courtesy Of:

Nā Maka o ka ‘Āina
(August 30, 2002)


The following is an excerpt from He Wahi Mo‘olelo no nā Ke‘ei ma Kona Hema, a collection of traditions, historical accounts and kama‘āina recollections of Ke‘ei, South Kona, Hawai‘i. It is used with the permission of Kepā Maly, Cultural Historian and Resources Specialist.

The excerpt has been edited by Ka‘iwakīloumoku for typographical errors only; the orthography is presented exactly as it is found in He Wahi Mo‘olelo no nā Ke‘ei ma Kona Hema.

Howard Ackerman was born at Kalamawai‘awa‘awa in 1932.  On both sides of his family, he is descended from traditional residents of lands between Kalamawai‘awa‘awa and Hōkūkano.  While growing up, Uncle was inquisitive, and spent much of his time out of school traveling the land, working from the mountain lands to the shore, and fishing with elder Hawaiian residents of the Ke‘ei - Kealakekua region.  From his own parents and area kūpuna, he learned Hawaiian customs, practices, and values, which he has lived throughout his life.  He and his wife, have in-turn shared their experiences and the knowledge gained from their elders with youth of the area.

Uncle is a noted fisherman, and in the interview he shared detailed descriptions of fishing the waters between Ke‘ei and Ka‘awaloa, observing that there have been significant changes in the health of the fisheries over the years.  He described various methods of fishing, and the importance of caring for the resources.  Uncle also described the application of the same kinds of values and practice in land use and stewardship.  While sharing the recollections of families and practices, Uncle Howard referenced a number of place names along the coast from Ke‘ei to Kealakekua.  In particular he noted that the near shore pond at Kalamawai‘awa‘awa – Kapahukapu, was always noted as a place of importance, and known for its healing qualities.  He believes that care of the land and ocean resources and cultural places is very important.  He is also very concerned about the protection of access (native trails and old roads), and protection of shore line for future generations; and laments the loss of these resources to date.

On August 30th, Uncle Howard joined a small group of kūpuna and area kama‘āina for an interview on the shore of Ke‘ei.  For additional descriptions of sites, practices and customs, see that interview.  Uncle Howard granted his release of the two interviews on January 7, 2003.

HA: ...Then we go up, I go up to the old man Cordeiro, leave so many horses off over there
and then the rest I take to Kāināliu.  Then from Keauhou you know the bay.  We come along the Beach Road.

KM: Yes, yes.  And then come up Kawanui or?

HA: I come up to Kāināliu.  I come out through there, ‘cause Uncle Sam stayed at Kāināliu.

KM: That’s right, ma kai?

HA: Yes.

KM: And so go up.

HA: I come until there, me and him, and from there I come up.

KM: Who was the other old man... [Thinking] Ka‘ilikini?

HA: Yes, yes.

KM: Ka‘ilikini?

HA: Yes, Ka‘ilikini.

KM: Oh, I guess down Honalo side like that.

HA: He’s a character too that old man.

KM: Yes, oh.

HA: Old man Keawe.

KM: Keawe Ka‘ilikini.

HA: Yes.  He used to come over here sometime my father hear the horse he said “Turn off all the lights, turn off all the lights...”  [Chuckling] And the old man Naluahine, he used to come up to the shop.  They all come talk story... And Mrs. Roy, when they were building houses along the Beach Road [Ali‘i Drive], she would call the old man to bless the houses.  Aunty Josephine would say, “You better send Howard to go get that old man.”  He was such a good cowboy...

All those old guys, they were a lot of fun... You know one thing I’m fortunate, the old people, they had something you know, fear or what.  I watched this old man Henriques, he was a very nice person.   At the shop, they used to bring all of those big laho ‘oles that they trap, and this man come up, he un-tie ‘em, and I never seen one pig turn on him.  I said, “You know this man not one animal turn on this man,” I think it’s because when these pigs are all babies, they see this man on a horse, and walking around, from the time they are babies.  Later he castrate ‘um all, but they all know this man.  They smell him, they know who he is...  Sometimes people ask me certain things like that about the animals.  ‘āhiu, how can you get close to ‘em?  I tell ‘um, “Your shirt, when you pau hana, soak ‘um in the water trough.  Then they all come drink water, and they smell and come ma‘a with you.  Simple things, so they know who you are.

KM: Yes, wow!  Thank you, see it’s nice to talk story.  Mahalo!  [Recorder off, then back on]

HA: ...Because you know if you don’t have enough wave action you going have problems.

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s why when it’s rough I’m happy.  You see it’s good it’s, nice stirring the bottom.

KM: That’s right.

HA: It picks up all the oil, everything.  Everybody talking about this, this, this... You know water been clear, I said, “Clear the water, you can see.”  Look at the bay, the bay was nice had sand, and then when they went haul that sand to Maluhia when they made Maluhia Camp.  The old people say, “Don’t you take the sand from Nāpo‘opo‘o and take ‘em.”

KM: They took sand from here?

HA: Yes and took ‘em to Ke‘ei.

KM: To take to Ke‘ei?

HA: Yes.  They pour ‘em all on the road going into Ke‘ei, going to Maluhia.

KM: You’re kidding!  Oh!

HA: The old people said, “If you’re going use something over there Ke‘ei, then use sand from Ke‘ei because they get plenty sand.  Don’t take the sand from over here because then going come rough and they going take all the sand away.”  And that’s just what happened.  The big swell came and broke the heiau, went fill that whole thing with stone until today.

KM: Yes.  And only pōhaku now?

HA: And only pōhaku, that’s just what it was.

KM: And it was interesting too ‘cause you even said that Alanui Aupuni, the old road before...

HA: Yes.

KM: Now, when they rebuilt the heiau they pushed the front end on top of the road so the road is gone.

HA: And then one time, the entrance was always there, and one time, somebody went move ‘um.  “What the hell as long as I remember the entrance was here.”  Even the old people were there.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: And then I was very upset when we did Henry O’s up here.

KM: Yes.

HA: We’re the ones who made Henry O’s.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: But then they went take the stone and brought ‘em up here.  I was hot I pull ‘em on the side, “Take back this stone, you folks have no right to this stone because these stones was brought for Henry O., down at the heiau.  What is this stone doing up here?  You supposed to get your own stone that was the deal!”

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: “Get your own stone.  These stones don’t belong to you folks, it doesn’t belong to the state, it belongs to a particular place, so take it back!”  They didn’t want to take it back.  I said, “If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it!”  Bumby you know people like that huhū, bumby you going get pilikia you know, those kinds of things, you know.

KM: ‘Ae, that’s how it is.  But you know when they, hūpō...

HA: Yes.

KM: When they make that kind of work.

HA: Yes, sure.

KM: And you don’t think why would you go ‘ohi something from a place like that, you know?

HA: Just like one time you know, had the kū‘ula stone, the akule kū‘ula stone by the second piling.  Then bumby I go in this bar and I look at this stone I tell this guy, “You know that stone look familiar.”  And you know what it was?  They guy said, “Should, you should know that stone.”  I said, “That stone from Nāpo‘opo‘o, the kū‘ula stone.”  He tell, “Yes.”  And you know, later he died.

KM: Where was that kū‘ula?

HA: It was the kū‘ula on that pile of rocks there [pointing towards the Nāpo‘opo‘o landing].  That was for the akule.  And he used to go over there go spot fish with Earl [Leslie], and one time he went go over there he took the stone... And that’s what he did.

KM: ‘Auwē!  Did the stone come home?

HA: I think Earl them went go get ‘um.

KM: Good.  Yes, you can’t mess around with those kinds of things... [Recorder off – back on; talking about salt stones in the Kāināliu vicinity].

HA: ...My wife saw the salt stones down there.  One day, early in the morning I was down there, I saw Hooper, so I went over there to talk to grandma, down Kāināliu Beach.  “Good morning, good morning.  Grandma, over there by Honey House (Week’s old place), that’s where they used to make the salt?”  She laugh, she said, “Billy, you heard what he said?  How did you know?”  I said, “Because we were over there looking at stones, and she told me come over here look.”  It was one, only half pau.  But my wife sees all that kind of stuff.

KM: Wow, good eye.  Nice that salt when you make salt.

HaA: Oh yes, that’s the best.

HA: That’s the best salt.

HaA: You know before nobody used to walk down the beach so the salt is safe.

KM: That’s right, yes.

HaA: Now you have all kinds people just shi-shi all over the place.

KM: Terrible yeah, haumia.

HaA: So nice but you cannot eat it because you don’t know.

KM: And our own children we need to teach them again about it, that you don’t hana ‘ino you know.  And you don’t just kāpae, throw your stuff around and what.

HA: Even look at the waterholes and what, you know.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: How they kāpulu that.

KM: Oh, aloha.

HA: Instead of ‘au‘au outside no they jump inside.  You know once that thing get stuck up...everything even like Makalawena.

KM: That’s right.

HA: Way up in the brackish water.  Because we used to go over there and the first time we go Makalawena, we stayed there we go one night.  And then catch ‘a‘ama, one, two o’clock in the morning we walking around trying to find the waterhole, and Polto seen us walking around, but that is for ‘au‘au, you know.  All those places get nice waterholes.

KM: They do, it’s amazing yeah.

HA: All get nice ones, so long as everybody mālama, it’s alright.

KM: That’s right.  Well, and you know that Keawewai at Mahai‘ula where the windmill, beautiful those little ponds and stuff in there too.

HA: Yes.

HaA: Uh-hmm.

KM: You know and all along that place.

HA: And Wilama, he always fixed the windmill, he was alright that man good in everything you know.  And to him it was just like part his, he always took care.

KM: Yes.

HA: And had Johnny Mano, he used to go and check over, and Dego Badillio.

KM: That’s right.  Mahalo, thank you so much.

HA: Nice talking to you.

KM: Nice talking to you.  What I have to do is go home and get these transcribed a little bit... [Discussed group interview at Ke‘ei – see transcript of August 30, 2001]

HA: You know the thing is what’s happening here, just like they’re tyring to change this place you know fast enough you know.  And I said, “What’s going to happen in years to come for the young ones?”  Later on you going say, “Gee I remember when this place was like this.”

KM: Right, right.

HA: It’s too late, what’s gone is gone.  I tell people you know you all going change.  Your thinking changes when you get older.  I keep telling them that you think it’s this way, but eventually you going change because you can’t keep on doing these kinds of things you know because it really pisses me off.

KM: There’s only so much.

HA: And like the Beach Road I go down there and I said, “I dive down here all my life just for make.”  We go down there lu‘u, a little bit maybe little bit limu you know, poke little fish, and it’s enough.  But now they taking everything away.  So I said, “How these kids going get to the ocean if they keep doing this”  And look at down there where they sold all this the front is out to the sand now how these people going get...this is the only sand they got and now it’s going be gone.  Because of money, because of money and I said they talk... “It’s Kam School, when they think of Kam School they think of Hawaiians, yeah.”  But I said, “Where is the Hawaiian...”  I don’t see nothing coming from the na‘au, you know what I mean.

: [Discuss changes in the admissions policy – and need to address needs of Hawaiian children.]

HA: [Discussing different attitudes brought into community once land is sold] ...And then they have some of the haoles they come down here, you know.  And they come and they sit down, and it doesn’t matter really who comes and who doesn’t come.  They walk around here, go around, looking all around you know.  I ask ‘em, “Excuse me, are you a surveyor?”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: They say, “Surveyor?  Yes,”  “Are you a surveyor?”  I thought that you were looking at the four corners so I figure you surveying the place.”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: They say, “I don’t mind owning the place,” he go like that.  Isaid, “Nah I think better if I own ‘em.”

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: So he tell me, “Why?”  I said, “You see when I own ‘em everybody’s enjoying.”  I tell ‘em, “If you own ‘em, going be one big fence out there, and only you and everybody from the outside here going be looking in.”

KM: More worse borrow the word “kapu, keep out right!”

HaA: [Chuckling]

HA: Yes.  You know I said, “Why I see you walking around, walking around I just wondering.”  You know what I mean?

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: Because just like had this one lady she real maha‘oi.  She come inside they all like come, the kids when they come, they just throw everything down.  And then when you like time for go, they think they own the place, they like tell you what for do.  So I just told her one day, “Lady, you name me one country where the white man never go and they never screw ‘em all up.  You know, name me one at least.”  She went get so pissed she’s mad with me.

KM: But you know it’s sad.  You’re right, and yes there are good things you know, but it’s like what happened to the people of the land.

HaA: Yes.

KM: They’re living in tents.

HA: Yes that’s right...

[Discusses changes at Parker Ranch and impacts on families] ...But you see the old people I tell everybody who raise horses, cows, I tell them “A rancher is not riding horse, a rancher is a grass farmer.  He’s a farmer.”  I was taught that, we raised cattle before.  You mālama your land, that’s how you live.

KM: That’s right mālama ka ‘āina.

HA: But you see, never over stock.  And that’s where the problem but you see when you bringing in people who think they know.  I tell ‘em, “You know I think, when you say I think, then you don’t know.  Because either you know or you don’t know.  And no more getting this jazz about, ‘I think!’”

KM: Yes.  Oh, you’re so right.  If you don’t take care the land nothing else goes right?

HA: Because once it goes down.

KM: That’s right.

HA: It’s hard for you to bring it back and then that’s when you going start losing your dirt...But, you see when you have mānienie or kikuyu, whatever grass you had.  Like Sherwood Greenwell them, you have to put the cattle inside to eat the grass so that water can go down.

KM: That’s right.

HA: Yes.  When it rains that’s why the ‘ōhi‘a tree on top now is getting brown because not enough water is going to the top because the grass is high because they worrying about the koa trees, and the water can’t go down to the roots.

KM: That’s right.

HA: So now what’s happening.  So you have to put the cattle in to control it, then that way you don’t have fire.

KM: Yes.

HA: You know because you keep ‘em down, you know then you take ‘em out again.

KM: Yes.

HA: You have to, because if not you going start losing all the ‘ōhi‘a.

KM: Yes, well and you know the other thing too, when it grows thick like that and what even the seeds can’t germinate.

HA: That’s right.

KM: So you no more new trees right?

HA: That’s right.

KM: You see the only time you open all your paddocks is dry weather, you have to find for food.  And people like that who raise, they cutting the ēkoa, and I tell them, “You shouldn’t cut these big trees you know, the ēkoa trees that’s what will feed the animals when dry weather.”

KM: Yes.

HA: I used to go around everyday, I cut so many trees down the cattle follow in the back of me and they clean ‘um up.  I said, nowadays they only like ride horse.  They think cowboy is to ride horse, you don’t have to fix fence.

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: You know...but you have to mālama your land.  That’s why I say the Greenwells they were good caretakers of their lands.  Roy Wall, the Paris’, everybody you know they good caretakers.  Parker Ranch had their weed gangs.

KM: That’s right.

HA: You know they took care.  That’s why I told the Bishop Estate guy, “These lands don’t come nice overnight you know and this is a lot of sweat.”  And I get mad because of that.

KM: And it didn’t come all messed up overnight either.

HA: That’s right.

KM: Was years of not taking care.

HA: Yes, not taking care.  You know funny, I worked from way back and I told people “You know why it’s a major problem?  Because we always used to maintain.  You only had so much where you always maintained our lines, we maintained everything.”

KM: Yes.

HA: You know, but now after I left, I said, “Nobody will ever walk through these areas now because I’m not there,” you know what I mean?

KM: Yes.

HA: But we knew everybody, and we were up and up with them we very up and up with everybody.  And that way they will take care of you, you take care of them you know what I mean?

KM: Yes.

HA: You know what I mean?

KM: And people kōkua one side or another you get branding or you get drive or something everyone you know...

HA: We used to go to Sherwood’s, we go to outside Honomalino, we go McCandless.  I used to go up from Bobby Hinds, Uncle Willie’s time, even Carlsmith.  Was good days you know and such beautiful people, and you can never find those kind of people you know.  I call them the golden people, “What do you call them?”  I call them, “The golden people.”  Because I tell them, “When they are gone, there’s no more replacement.”

KM: Yes.

HA: Just like Billy Paris, I help him with cattle sometimes.

KM: [Chuckling]

HA: But I said, “You know I have a lot of respect for this man.”  You know when he’s gone... [shaking his head], you appreciate him now.  I said, “When he’s gone, he’s the last one.”

KM: Yes.

HA: You know.

KM: And it’s amazing how much he remembers you know.

HA: Unreal.

HaA: Did you ever talk to him?

KM: Yes, a number of times.  He hānau 1923 but he knows you know.  I guess that was a privilege of his time and the family status.

HA: And he wanted to learn that.

KM: Yes, that’s right.

HA: Even driving from Kawanui, he knows all the little paddocks, we just driving cattle.  He knows the name of this one here or this kuleana, adjoins the ma uka piece.  Things like that, I give him credit, “Yes this man, he’s alright.”

KM: Yes.

HA: And you know he comes, like when he need help he come down even if he have to go drive down the coffee land look for us.  Like with the Henry O., he kind of in touch with us all the time.

KM: Yes you know under the...I guess they all claim sort of a familial relationship with Ho‘omanawanui mā you know and stuff and how Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia.
HA: ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, old man Nahā used to live over here Kahauloa, he was like one kahuna pule everybody kind of respected him.  He was kind of in with all the top people like the Paris’, whoever was around at that time.  And we were kind of maka‘u this man, a little bit too you know.  But he was a nice man and his grandson was named Henry ‘ōpūkaha‘ia, and a little older than us, a few years older than us.  But he died.  Anyway, I think that was the same family.  He was a very sharp man you know this old man Nahā.  Right over there in Kahauloa.

KM: Kahauloa.  You know coming back to when you talk about old names like that ‘ōpūkaha‘ia that are familiar.  Kekūhaupi‘o when we were talking earlier.  The lot right below Pānui.

HA: Uh-hmm.

KM: Was Kekūhaupi‘o and that lot evidently just got sold not too long ago and someone...Thurston.  Someone, Thurston’s are building a house or Twigg-Smith is building a house up there now.

HA: Oh yeah?

KM: But you know it’s too bad if they had known the value of that land in the history ‘cause that was his kuleana, Kekūhaupi‘o the descendent, even you know.

HA: I thought one Japanese owned it, what was his name...

KM: He sold it I think kū‘ai.

HA: [thinking] ...The place right ma kai, the gate that’s the only kuleana get already over there, anyhow ma kai the gate.

KM: Hmm.  Pānui’s one is under Na‘ea, that’s where Pānui comes in.  Right ma uka, one kuleana is Kauhi, that’s their tūtū also [pointing to locations on BE Map 824].  So Kauhi, Na‘ea, Makaiahai,, Kekūhaupi‘o and then just over was the old school lot.  Just a couple lots over right there.  You’ll see it on this map here [BE Map No. 824].

HA: Yes, because you know when I went out last, for one party we went to Hāilis, the Andrades the party over there.  When I looked over and that Alice was there I said, “Alice, what happened to that stonewall supposed to be pili to the coconut tree?”  She said, “Aha, aha that’s right, I showed them the picture about that.”  She said that’s what Louie was saying that’s what I was trying to tell them.

KM: You had mentioned an Andrade that you asked if I’d spoke to.  Who was that?

HA: Katie.

HaA: Katie Andrade.

KM: Katie Andrade, oh okay.

HA: She was raised over there.

KM: This one has the old kuleana showing on it.  This is Bishop Estate Map 824, if you look right here so see Na‘ea?

HA: Yes.

KM: This is where Pānui is.  The was Kauhi where the Kauhis lived that’s his kūpuna.  Then you get Makaiahai.

HA: Yes this one here, I forget that Japanese name [thinking].

KM: And see this one Kekūhaupi‘o.

HaA: Hmm.

HA: Because I know way inside, where the navigator, Nāinoa is, Richard Toritomo had inside there too.

KM: Oh.  See that would be right about here.

HA: Yes, right here.

KM: Interesting.  When I went to visit Mr. Pānui in Honolulu, it was nice to talk story.

HA: Yes.  Willie is nice, very nice.  Because you know the wall... [Thinking] This map not that old?

KM: No, this is from 1920.

HA: Hmm.  These are kuleana, there’s the wall [looking at map].  This was Hāili [Makaiahai].

KM: Yes, that’s right.

HA: This is now Mitchell.  And this is where Katie them are.

KM: Oh, Kumahoa?

HA: Yes.

KM: This is the old school.  Is this the old school lot?  Oh right there, that’s it right there, the school lot.

HA: That’s Greenwell.  Yes.  But you see, before, everybody drove through here.

KM: ‘Ae.  Yes, right there.

HA: And right to the beach, inside.

KM: Yes.

HA: But now they cannot go through this so they come down from this side.

KM: That’s right.

HA: But now you see by the wall, used to be pili to the coconut tree.

KM: Yes, uh-hmm.

HA: That’s what Alice was trying to say when they went to build the wall, “You folks are encroaching on the ocean side, and they cannot pass because supposed to be the wall.  So when I went over there that night, I just went look over like that and I say, “Auwē Alice what happened over there, that wall supposed to be out by the coconut tree?”  She said, “You see you know that’s what I was trying to tell them.”

KM: Yes.  Because see they drew the... [Pointing to areas on map]  Here’s the road this is the section comes in from your folks place over here ma kai the road comes you can see a little bit of a line there.  But now this sections all washed out too, I think.  You know the water is moved up more.  So even part of the school lot is in the ocean, look like.  ‘Cause the road went right through the old school lot.

HaA: Uh-hmm.

KM: And along the edge of the walls though.

HA: You know like with Bishop Estate when they gave Kona Surf & Racquet Club like that.

KM: Yes, yes.

HA: And then they made all the hotels, and they moved out on the trails.  But you no can put something on a flat thing ‘cause water going wash ‘em out.  But, that’s how always get pilikia, they get pilikia even with the golf course they say people at night.  People don’t want to work because they maka‘u work.

KM: Yes, sure.

HA: And because you going have that.  You going have that problem right through because you see there’s no more respect.  Then when you think about Kam School, the Hawaiians where’s the respect?  They teaching ‘em how to speak Hawaiian but you know you got to teach them to have the Hawaiian heart.  Teaching them Hawaiian and to speak Hawaiian that doesn’t make them Hawaiian at heart you know.  That only teaches them how to talk Hawaiian, and that’s it you know but it’s not from here [pointing to heart], no.

KM: ‘Ae.

HA: That’s how it goes you kow.  And I hope the ones now, eventually as they get older their thinking going start changing you know but I hope it’s not too late.  Because our ‘āina is just going... [discusses restoration of Kahikolu and Lanakila Churches]

KM: ...Pule mau that’s what you have to do, pule mau.

HA: Yes, that’s what you have to do.

KM: Mahalo so nice to get a chance to meet you.

HA: You, I tell you, I admire you.  You’ve been all around, you met so many people what a terrific thing.

HaA: Uh-hmm.  Do you have another appointment to go to?

KM: I’m going to go and see somebody else later this afternoon.  It’s so important you’ve got to make best use of the time.  It’s so nice I keep hearing your name...anyway I really appreciate.  What I’ll do is basic transcript of the information, I’m going to bring the recording home to you so the recording is just for you folks.  And then you know maybe mo‘opuna, someone’s going to be interested too you know.  I’ll transcribe out most of it.  The whole idea is just so people understand about the land and how we should be working it, living it with one another.

HA: It’s hard you know because you just hope that they’re going to change their way of thinking.  You know like the old people said you know “it’s not how much you make it’s how much you give.”

KM: That’s right.

HA: You know like people say, “hoo this old house.”  We happy with this old house.

HaA: Nobody wants to pay, so just live like this.  We happy.

KM: Good old memories.

HA: I said we had good times.  I tell them you know, “It’s what makes you happy.”

KM: Yes.

HA: That’s the thing you know.  We’ve always been happy here.

KM: Wonderful!

HaA: Howard likes to be down here, but he doesn’t go very much ma uka.  I think the beach is better for him.

KM: Yes.

HA: Even my mama, when she lived here you know she used to say...when you think back, “it’s rough, it’s mālia, you never get tired looking at the ocean.”  And that’s true but when you’re young, you don’t think too much of that until you get older, and then you say “this is golden, this is golden.”

KM: Look at this place, this, the pali.

HA: Yes.

KM: And it’s storied, Ka Pali Kapu o Keōua, Manuahi, Ka‘awaloa...

HA: Yes.

KM: Your ‘āina here, the history that you know.

HA: Like I used to sleep by the ‘ōpae pond [on the side of Hikiau Heiau], and I come home, she say “boy, where did you sleep night time?”  “Outside by Masuhara house.”  “Oh, that’s all burial ground over there.”  But she said, “You lucky you from over here.”

KM: Yes.

HA: You know nothing bothers me you know.

KM: No.  They know the heart.

HA: Yes they know.  Only like Ka‘awaloa, my aunty, uncle Joe’s wife, “You boys no sleep over there.”  Well, one night I sleep the wrong place so they moved me.  I came home, we never say nothing.  But she put on the light, “I told you damn kids don’t sleep down there.”  But you know it’s minor we just slept the wrong place.  I always telling people one time we went to the Red Hill.

KM: Pu‘u Ohau?

HA: Yes.  And beautiful, we went in on the boat night time, Pō Kāne.  We was going down south, for dive way down Kapu‘a.  But then once we went in by Opala House.  So we went into Opala Hosue, oh the beautiful show.  Most times no show, but the whole place just light up, all around.

KM: Wow!  Pu‘u Ohau?

HA: Right inside the bay, what’s the name of that bay over there?

KM: [Thinking] Nāwāwā?

HA: Yes, yes, yes right.  Eh you boy, you’re sharp!

KM: [chuckles]

HA: Anyway right there and beautiful you know.  Right outside on the ocean around the boat.  Then I took one guy and the little boy up, catch ‘a‘ama.  We had a 100 pound rice bag, jump in the water that night.  Oh the lobster and stuff just so much.  Nice show that was really nice show you know.

KM: Light all over there?

HA: Lights, just like somebody went all along the cliff.  Then later go outside the ocean, outside.  Nice show.  And I said wow, right on!

KM: Get plenty stuff all out there too you know.

HA: But you know things that’s in the ground even like Kāināliu Beach.

KM: Uh-hmm.

HA: The animals, the one get scared.  I went on a horse before when I was young, oh the horse went race.  The only time he stopped was by the gate.

KM: For real?  One place over there?

HA: Yes, the old house.  And when I was telling this boy one time, “You know animal no go through this yard?  They go down and come on the other side.”  He said, “Oh yeah?”  But I said, “That’s before when I used to come long time.”  You know but this boy kind of looked about twenty years younger.  Then he tell me, “The thing no pau.”  I said, “Why?  Go look where your dog?”  I said, “I don’t know.”  He said when he came to that gate he went all the way down the beach, and then when we came out the other side, he went meet us on the other side.

KM: For real!

HA: So he tell me “look like still here.”  Then you know he told me one day, he tell me, “This man must have been a mean man” and I went look at him and I told him, “You know, I think you’re right and the animal sense this, they see.”  I think they see the animals getting beat up inside this property.  And finally they come you see that gate they go down the beach walk down the beach over there they come out the other side...

KM: Yes.

HA: So everything is there, and like the old railroad track you know the one go right through over there.

KM: Yes... Well, good.  Mahalo, thank you folks so much, sorry I didn’t mean to take so much of your time.

HaA: No, no, no.

HA: Don’t worry about that... [End of interview]